One issue not in question - it's a real nice fish.
Early in our Research and Development program in Southern Chile, one of our guides, Garrett Sullivan, caught this exceptional fish.
We took some shots and released it, thinking “man, that was an awesome brown”.
When we got home, we sent some pictures around to a bunch of folks, and maybe half of them responded saying “great fish, but that’s not a brown – that’s clearly an Atlantic salmon.”
Looks like a salmon here, doesn't it?
Over the past couple of years we’ve had a lot of people weigh in on the topic, and opinions seem to be pretty split. We’ve also thought in the past about running polls on our blog, so we figured now’s the time – we’ll let the collective wisdom of the internet identify this fish!
Red spots - brown. Maxillary vs eye - brown. Patchy spots on back - Atlantic. Head shape - Atlantic. Right?
Loading ...Thanks for weighing in! Feel free to leave a comment below letting us know why you voted the way you voted.
P. S. Yes, we considered the R&D program on that river to be successful, and yes, we fish that river at Chile West whenever we can.
P.P.S. If you’d like to chase exceptional fish like this around Southern Chile, drop us a line – we’d love to have you.
{ 30 comments… read them below or add one }
amazing fish
Brown. Three positive reasons; one sorta reason:
Positive: 1) Mandible extends to half-way or beyond orbit of eye.
2) Heavy and numerous spots on operculum (gill plate)
3) And most compelling of all: Spots on the adipose fin
And the sorta (because you can’t see with 100% certainty):
The caudal peduncle (wrist) appears thick
Gharrett landed a trophy brown – not some escapee salmon from a Chilean fish farm. Good on you, man!
Hope your Chile squad faired ok in the earthquake…thoughts go out to everyone down there.
Thanks Jeremy – our team and their families are all fine. We’re far enough away that they didn’t even feel it. Thanks for the thoughts!
Hallo to everbody,
I`m quite sure that the fish on the photo is a male atlantic salmon.
He escaped from a fish farm. You can see that because the fish has got not real good fins. It would have been better not to release such a fish.
Karl Kreissig
a fishfarmer from Germany
I vote brown, although Karl’s point about damaged fins well taken, and I can offer no explanation. But…while difficult to tell from photo, there appears to be no concavity to the tail -it’s more spade like indicating brown. Also, spots appear to extend fairly well below lateral line, indicating brown. Also thickness of caudal peduncle. Salmon have a narrower wrist. Had Garrett tried to “tail” this fish, I think it would have squirted out (unless he knew the Vulcan Grilse Grip!). In adult salmon (not grilse), the relatively narrower caudal peduncle combined with stiff positioning of the exterior caudal rays make a perfect “handle”. (FYI – lifting a salmon completely out of the water by the tail so that it hangs vertically can damage internal organs – poor catch & release practice).
This fish is amazing yes! I have never stared at a fish for so long or ever in that fact trying to determine species. After seeing numerous different looking browns in that same area I started comparing fins. The tail doesn’t match any of the other fish I’ve seen here. The fish is big, so if this was a brown the rounded off tail and other fins could be from escaping predators and other trout. The Jaw and upper back would tell me that this is an Atlantic. A very distinguished jaw, and the spot configuration on the top of the back is something I’ve also never seen.The spots remind me of the salmon I used to catch in the salt. The orange spots on the side and the maze configuration on the adipose fin tell me its a brown. So my next question is, can the two cross breed? As a guide here, this is a question that must be answered. I want to say its a mix.
T- Covich
Look at the close up of the fish, do you see the “super tiny” spots mixed in on the top of the back. Now look at photos of every brown we have ever caught here. I can’t find any with that spot configuration. I’m convinced neither will you. Mix.
i went back and looked at this photo as well. i still vote mix
Mark Orlicky weighed in with this comment via email:
You know, it sure looks like a brown. But, when a brown has been in the Great Lakes or gone to sea, it frequently gets real silverish. And, can be mistaken for a Chinook Salmon sometimes, other times, it looks like an Atlantic Salmon. And, vice versa. This is a good one.
I sent the email to an ichthyologist friend of mine. He sent back a guess that it was a naturally occuring cross between a Brown Trout and an Atlantic Salmon. He said,
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It looks to me like a brown/atlantic hybrid for sure.
The giveaway is the upper jaw extending downward with a slight hook. Most of the other physiological features are brown.
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So, let that guess be entered into the pot.
twenty years ago i worked with fisheries and oceans on the east coast of canada and atlantics and brown trout were successfully crossed. thats what this looks like to me
I’ve seen a few fish like that in over 8 seasons in Chile, mostly in the Rio Simpson and a couple in the fjords. They’ve always really stumped me in having characters of both species. It’s difficult to accurately determine caudal peduncle depth and maxillary length from a photo, and using the maxillary for identification is not always accurate in these species. Coloration can be an environmental trait and not a heritable one, so it’s a tough call there. Probably the best character to get a good ID is vomerine teeth (one row in Atlantic salmon, two rows in brown trout), but obviously this is difficult with a live fish in a C&R situation. I wouldn’t rule out the possibility of this fish being a hybrid. Running the genetics would be the only way to get a definitive identification.
I was caught those cain of fish several time in my entire fly fishing live here in chilean patagonia.
When you see his behavior when they start to run upstream you will know that they are Atlantic salmon. ex. where they lie, how they move upstream, how many are in the group, and more important “they are easy to recognize when you can see it more silvers”. The salmon of the picture is a mature one. Its behaviour are not from a brown trout.
Looks like a clear case of hybridization to me as it displays characteristics of both – same Genus, so it is completely within the realm of possibilities… But we’re being a bit nit-picky, aren’t we? Either way, whatever its origins, it is one helluva salmonid!
clearly a brown seeing the spots on the adipose fin and the square tail.
atlantic salmon do not have these spots on the fin. It’s plain to see why some think it an atlantic. the mouth looks like it’s close to the rear of the eye when drawing a vertical line. a brown would extend past the rear of the eye. But the spots on the fin makes it a brown
Brown – Thinking that when they get big they can start to look very much like a salmon, especially the cock fish which develop a considerable hook jaw. Generally its the cannibals that get bigger and live longer as a consequence. Sometimes then being known as Ferox trout. Possibly similar to eels the predatory tendancies also cause the head to enlarge. Seems like the double figure ones get ridiculously broad heads. They also seem to silver up as they get bigger. Some of the larger ones I’ve been lucky enough to encounter are entirely silver and don’t seem to retain a hint of brown about them. Seems to fade out as they hit double figures. But they definately are browns. Spots can look similar to the one in the photo which appears to be starting the “silvering” process. No chance of being salmon where I have encountered them. Although when you first land them your so gobsmaked and high on adrenalin youre half inclined to think they could be!
Beautifull fish. For a river that is an absolute specimen. Must be a good river !
On salmon, the vomerine teeth are small and arranged in a single row on the shaft, with few to none on the vomerine head. On the Brown Trout, the vomerine teeth are well-developed on both the vomerine head and shaft, and arranged in a zig-zag row on the shaft. Also on salmon, the caudal fin may be slightly forked and on the brown trout, the caudal fin is square and unforked.
Caudal fin identification is probably the most commonly used method, since noone can remember which teeth configuration is trout and which is salmon; however, Brown trout have Always been refered to as Square Tails in our region.
http://www.maine.gov/ifw/fishing/species/identification/salmon_browntrout.htm
Sometimes, one can tell the difference just by the tail…”old square tailed Browns”……but sometimes the juvenials look SO similar that you have to reach into their mouth with your pinkie and feel the rows of teeth. And, even THEN, I cannot always be certain. The State of Maine Department of inland fisheries tries to help fishermen identify properly, as we are trying to protect our Salmon population. My theory is never keep any fish, but moreover….NEVER keep a fish that is in question. Gorgeous fish….even prettier release.
But By your photo, my guess would be a gorgeous Brown, based on the coloration and squared off tail. Browns can grow to be as big as a salmon, as witnessed by this monster taken from a Lake in Maine a few winters ago. I tried, unsuccessfully, to find a photo for you, as it was printed in the Kennebec journal around 3/6/ 1996 . This brown was So big ( caught through the Ice) that the fella had to chip a 10 inch auger hole out to about 12 inches to get the fish out of the water. I have included a record of it’s capture.
Point: This giant brown looked just like a salmon, not a trout, however, was clearly identified by state biologists as a Brown. It had none of the coloration of a Brown and was as silver as a smelt. The State record Atlantic Salmon is only 5 lbs or so bigger.
http://www.landbigfish.com/staterecords/records.cfm?state=Maine
We do occasionally have a stray fish in a place where it does not belong, but this particular pond has no dam-less access to the ocean, or any Landlock population. So there is no question in my mind that this was an accurate identification.
On a more comical note:
We did have a guy catch a 36 inch Striped Bass in the Machias Lake chain a few years ago, and wardens arrested him, because the size limit on Stripers on the coast is 40 inch min. He caught this thing in the LAKE, where it had made it’s way up the Machias River 20 miles inland, and was most likely eating all of our trout. But, they arrested him for NOT releasing this fish. I’ll be honest….I would NOT have put a 36 inch striper back into a trout pond either.
Beautiful Website
Thanks for all your hard work
In Addition, Tim’s comment of July 18 2010 is exactly correct also. The record brown caught in Maine had such an enormous head for it’s length, that it looked more like a prehistoric creature than any modern brown that you’ve ever seen.
Bad news the brown trout/salmon fish in the photos is an escaped farm salmon that should have ended up on a fish counter but managed to get into your river. We catch lots of them in scotland and ireland and refer to them as chumpys. It is a terrible fish……with neh fins that will ruin your “wild” stock.
Nice Fish Garret! I agree with the brown votes, looks exactly like a very big sea run brownie to me, beyond what else has been said the the black margin on the caudal fin is typical of sea run browns and seals it for me
Wish you guy’s could respond when I post!!! I’ve investigated this Brown/Atlantic thing, and my conclusion is they are the same fish!! I called the Flyshop in California, and raised that question to them, and their answer was their is very little DNA/genetic difference. They both reside in the same areas/geographical zones, and one is anadromous just like the rainbow/steelhead thing. Seems fly fisherman want to make the distinction as they are two separate species. An Atlantic that is in the river system turns very much like a Brown Trout, and can’t be distinguished from a Brown in my opinion.
Hey Jere, thanks a lot for stopping by – we appreciate your posts! Great input on the brown/Atlantic question…I think there are as many views as anglers on this one.
Whatever it is, and it looks like an Atlantic Salmon to me the shape of the tail fin, with the points badly eroded would seem to indicate that it is an escaped farmed fish. Every farmed fish you see in a supermaarket has a tail like this sYou can see any number with
I have been catching, dining on some few, releasing many, brown trout,though never close to the size of this specimen, since I am 17. I am now 67, the math is easy, and I catch them still. There is zero doubt to my eyes, that this outsized piscine marvel is, yes, a brown trout. The yellow,and the white colouration on his flank and underbelly make this certain to me, in addition to the colour of its spots as well as their aureoles. Yes, I am hooked on this fish and this opinion of it.
Respectfully,
Michael W. Miller
Did it have teeth in the roof of its mouth?
Browns do, AS do not
When all else fails this is a good indicator
Salmon, eyes located too far back and low to be a brown
it`s sort of funny. i was searchinhg the net for the common/local names for the brown land loch cross and found this site.
i have caugt a number of them. in my case they are mentioned earlier, the viable crosses on the east coast of canada. i fish those lakes they talked about, and actualy plan to target these fish and land loch salmon to over the next 10 days. these land lochs are atlantic salmon, mostly land loched naturaly a long time ago and now are also stocked. they developed in the 40`s a viable cross of brown trout and these salmon and at the same time an artic char that could handle slightly warmer waters. because of this the regs for the area refer to them as “any combination of brown trout and land loch salmon”. the one shown is one of the easier of these crosses to identify. we have different seasons for brown and land loch, so some variants like the female`s with a browns body and salmon forked tail – just how forked did it have to get to be a cross? so they finaly just changed the rules to include both and any combination.
they are fun to catch, and can prefer bad weather with lots of waves. they will also do the salmon thing of following the boat some times. they don`t put up as much of a fight as a brown, and have the tendancy of a salmon to quit after a short initial fight. the strong slamon variant can have a soft lip, requiring soft rods and smouth reels – don`t over set the hook or you will lose it. they taste like a combo of the two, i cook them like salmon… but i cook browns like salmpon too! lol!
i target them almost completely in the spring, their bite dies off a lot in the summer. the fall fishing for them is new to me, i`ll see how i do and let you know.
i do have at least one picture of this hybred variant, salmon body digital pattern, small for it`s size brown`s square tail, jaw hooked and head like brown or fall spawning atlantic that has been in fresh water for more than a few days. same as your fish. i would post it but i planned to put it on another site that probabley won`t like that. do you guy`s claim rights on photos? if not, or if i can find another one or get one before the first of oct. i will post it.
brown trout atlantic salmon hybred.
ipop
chumpy`s eh?!!! lol thanks!
Hola Amigo,
Brown Trout and Atlantic Salmon cannot cross, it is a scientific fact. Had they been able to, they would have done so in Europe many millions of years ago. Although they belong to the same genus Salmo, their offspring if there ever have been any, would be sterile. It is most definitely a German Brown just like the many I’ve cought in Colorado and Arkansas, no different! Wishful thinking goes a long way.
A nice sized Brown is what it is, I can give you my full confidence on this one. It looks nothing like an Atlantic salmon. It’s color is brown not silver. It has red and black spots and a yellow underbelly.. It’s definitely a BROWN!
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